|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2568
   |
Posted - 2016.02.08 16:21:44 -
[1] - Quote
Inb4 shitstorm about having to pay for a book. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2571
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 18:41:41 -
[2] - Quote
Paddy Finn wrote:Don't try and do mental gymnastics about how FAX and carriers roles are significantly different from the combined roles the carrier has now. If you can fly it before a patch you should be able to fly it after a patch, this is an unacceptable solution to the problem.
You can fly a carrier and will be able to fly a carrier or a FAX. Anything you could fly will still be available unless you choose not to. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2574
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 20:31:36 -
[3] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Celeste Benal wrote:If you aren't going to use those fighter skills anymore, grab some extractors and pull those SP for sale to recoup your FAX skillbook cost. Why? I need to pay for every thing. CCP for very long time uphold rule : If you can fly it now ... You will find multiple posts from CCP employees stating this, you will find this in dev blogs. Now CCP changed this while changing at the same time important, time consuming and expensive line of ships. Problem is that you will be no longer capable of doing the same stuff like before after this changes. In some cases this is very big change.
It's you can fly what you could fly, not you can do what you could.
You will still be able to fly a carrier unless you decide not to. There are 0 ship that you could fly that you will no longer be able to unless you decide to switch your SP via refund to something else and at that point, YOU made the decision to change so CCP's rule of "If you can fly it before you will after" is not broken. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2579
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 13:18:44 -
[4] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today".
Which amount to **** all since CCP's rule was always if you can fly ship X today, you will be able to fly it tomorrow. If you can fly an Caldari carrier today, you will be able to fly it come citadel unless YOU CHOOSE to use the option provided to spec out of it.
If your gonna cry about the "wasted" and "useless" skill for a dedicated X pilot, then remember this is the exact same way they handled to Orca skill shuffle where people were "stuck" with barge skill for example. CCP is following their usual rules quite to the letter in this case but people expect them to deviate from the usual procedure.
It's not unheard of for people to be left with non optimal skills. As was told to Orca pilots back then, your skill are not useless. You just decide not to use them. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2579
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 14:22:30 -
[5] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote: " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today".
Which amount to **** all since CCP's rule was always if you can fly ship X today, you will be able to fly it tomorrow. If you can fly an Caldari carrier today, you will be able to fly it come citadel unless YOU CHOOSE to use the option provided to spec out of it. If your gonna cry about the "wasted" and "useless" skill for a dedicated X pilot, then remember this is the exact same way they handled to Orca skill shuffle where people were "stuck" with barge skill for example. CCP is following their usual rules quite to the letter in this case but people expect them to deviate from the usual procedure. It's not unheard of for people to be left with non optimal skills. As was told to Orca pilots back then, your skill are not useless. You just decide not to use them. but the ship i can fly now will not be here when the citadel release hits its getting cut in half. one half is just keeping the same name and model
Yes it will be. If you had an Archon, you will still be able to fly an archon. If you could fly a chimera, you will still be able to fly a chimera. People could still fly their geddons after the change to a neut platform even if the way they used to use it was no longer functionnal. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2580
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 15:45:58 -
[6] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.
You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat.
No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2582
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 15:59:14 -
[7] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.
You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi. Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point. The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well.
Not in the same ship which is the core problem with carrier and the reason they are being split.
The reason why you think it does not deserve a new skill is because you are used to having both. If it all had been released like how it is supposed to end up being, people would of taken it and trained for whatever they wanted to fly. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2582
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 16:31:23 -
[8] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:Confirming triage carriers were #1 damage on kills regularly.
You appear to be conflating triage and slowcat. No amount of refitting can make a basilisk turn into a dps platform. That's neither here nor there. Cruiser V lets me jump from DPS to logi. Carrier V used to too. Well, it would if I could use triage, but you take my point. The lack of specialised carrier hulls creates a demand for a new hull and changes to old one certainly, it absolutely does not create a need for new skill as well. Not in the same ship which is the core problem with carrier and the reason they are being split. The reason why you think it does not deserve a new skill is because you are used to having both. If it all had been released like how it is supposed to end up being, people would of taken it and trained for whatever they wanted to fly. Then why do both skills needed to be rank 14?
I don't know why they make it stay a rank 14 and why the new one is a rank 14. All I know is that they followed their very own rules to the letter and people are asking for them to stray away from those rules. Many of those people asking CCP to change the ususal rules are also the type to post stuff like HTFU or shitting on proposal to make the game less of a clusterfuck because "EVE is suppsoed to be hard" and other similar reasons.
I have no issue with people being mad about the rank of the skill being 14 while the ship is losing some major options but carrier will still be driven by the carrier skill and CCP basicaly decided FAX would not be a carrier class vessel which mean they need a skill.
They obvioulsy don't want to give it out for free in term of SP so any change in the rank of the skill would probably be faced with SP deletion or sunk in new pre-req for example. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2582
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 16:33:54 -
[9] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You appear to be being willfully obtuse.
Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them.
I don't know the real answer but if I have to make a guess on why they did it, I'd say it's because they want each capital hull your train for to be a meaningful choice with the associated time sink. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2583
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 17:00:53 -
[10] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You appear to be being willfully obtuse.
Explain why a new hull and rebalance of texting old is insufficient to correct them.
I don't know the real answer but if I have to make a guess on why they did it, I'd say it's because they want each capital hull your train for to be a meaningful choice with the associated time sink. And yet it's ill thought out as the x14 and costs are because it also was for supers. Not so much with these.
I'm pretty sure they made it 14x because they don't want people to have overflowing SP after re-speccing into FAX from carrier. Unless everyone speccing into FAX is willing to burn those SP? It's not gonna happen and I already hear the 'I trained those SP!!!" warcry... |
|
|
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2583
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 17:05:41 -
[11] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
I'm pretty sure they made it 14x because they don't want people to have overflowing SP after re-speccing into FAX from carrier. Unless everyone speccing into FAX is willing to burn those SP? It's not gonna happen and I already hear the 'I trained those SP!!!" warcry...
Nope, they did it as leverage for their new SP extractor. Just because you dont believe CCP could be that cynical doesnt change the fact they are. I present monocle-gate as all the evidence i need. With the CEO of CCP calling eve subscribers a 'cash cow', as if any further evidence was needed.
Why didn't they make it 16x then if it's only to milk the SP trade? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2583
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 17:12:04 -
[12] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Why didn't they make it 16x then if it's only to milk the SP trade? Ill answer that as though its a serious question and not just senseless argumentation. Why did they introduce a new skill at all when all other T1 ship classes that have DPS and RR roles are covered under one skill? As per racial frigate and racial cruiser skills.
Capital exception is my guess. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2583
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 17:28:28 -
[13] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Capital exception is my guess.
Is that your final answer? Seems vacuous and arbitrary at best. Does that seem like a good reason for you? How would you justify a 'capital exception' policy? Would you support a 'frig exception' or 'cruiser exception' policy if they decide to split DPS and RR roles in those classes? Does it seem more likely than CCP trying to leverage their SP extractors on older players? Rather than playing a bad devils advocate why dont you stick to what you know?
I personally would not care if they split the cruiser and frigate skills but how many people share my vision this I cannot know. All I can tell is capitals are riddled with exceptions so one more on top of it is not that much of a stretch.
Oh and rather than playing the conspiracy alarmist, how about you stick to what you know? Oh right, it's a forum and we both can express our opinion... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2583
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 17:38:01 -
[14] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
I personally would not care if they split the cruiser and frigate skills but how many people share my vision this I cannot know. All I can tell is capitals are riddled with exceptions so one more on top of it is not that much of a stretch.
Please elaborate on these exceptions. Because seems to me, with regards to other T1 ship classes, CCP just introduced one by splitting up the DPS and RR roles.
Can't enter high sec, have different effect when a HIC focused point is on them like gate jumping, some of them can't dock while others can, cannot be built in the same facility, T1 hulls not build out of minerals,... Adding one of top of that for logistic ship have their one separate racial skill is not all that much of a stretch. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2583
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 17:50:06 -
[15] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
Can't enter high sec, have different effect when a HIC focused point is on them like gate jumping, some of them can't dock while others can, cannot be built in the same facility, T1 hulls not build out of minerals,... Adding one of top of that for logistic ship have their one separate racial skill is not all that much of a stretch.
Those are balancing issues. Are you suggesting that any of those should also be 'fixed'? Also, as i have said, splitting up DPS and RR roles inside a class of ship is a NEW and fairly unique exception. It used to be based on the same ship skill, and in other T1 ships it is still based on the same ship skill. Try again.
The fact that exceptions were made for balance does not render them moot. It shows that making special rules for capital is not something new at all and is in fact something that has been accepted by the player base for a long time.
Every single exceptions for capitals started as "new" and "fairly unique". |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2583
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 21:30:56 -
[16] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:My solution did not involve free SP or reimbursed SP.
It is by far the simplest option they could have chosen and follows a model already in place for frigate and cruiser DPS/Logi.
Except from what we read, their GOAL also include requiring much more SP investment to be able to do RR and DPS so your solution brings them no closer at all to that for all existing pilots and that is probably why they didn't go that way. It's pretty obvious they want you to have to burn more SP into it no matter how you acquire those SP so any solution that runs around that principle is defacto not good for THEM.
Your solution by itself is good IF the goal was just to make a clean transition from the current state to new ship existing and no one loosing any potential ROLES in their effective capability. If they wanted that, they would of went with something like you are proposing or close to it. Your proposal is sadly not effective for the goal THEY have. If you get closer with your solution to your own goal than what they propose, your solution probably just gives too much for their plan. It does not take them to THEIR end goal.
If you propose any way where you get both half of the pie directly, you are playing outside of their defined limits. If it's not the proposed one, it will be another but at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure their goal is to make you do a though choice.
If history of other RR ship is to show something, the RR one will pretty much require to be trained to V to be really effective while the DPS one will work at lower skill level with much lesser sacrifice on the fit to make it work. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2584
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 13:46:53 -
[17] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
When you've managed to **** off everyone with a transition you know you're doing it wrong.
Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't... |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2584
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 13:55:44 -
[18] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Funny how you made a mistake and acknowledged it. Unlike the two trolls in here who are factually or conceptually wrong on nearly everything they say but just ignore it like it didnt happen lol.
Dont forget about new skills for the T1 frigate and cruiser logi. Not only do they not fall into the regular combat cruiser role. they are dramatically different to their previous incarnation.
CCP must have forgot to give them new skills when they got their logistics role.
They didn't add new skills for the cruiser and frigates because we were already able to fly the hull in question. I could fly a mining osprey so their rule stated I had to be able to still fly an osprey. If they created a new skill for them, they would need to grant it's SP value to everyone who could fly it back before the change or we would have a case of not being able to fly a ship we could before. This is not happening to the FAX as no-one could fly them ever before.
The same principle was followed when they made the BC except they really wanted to create a bigger SP sink to fly them all so they went with a solution that increased the SP sink while also letting everyone still fly all the hulls they could before the change. If I could fly all BC with V skill on them before the swap, they had to let me fly them all at V after the change too. You could not fly a FAX at V before the announcement and most likely won't be able to make it to have all trained by the time citadel hits and that is why you don't get it directly to you.
Your suggestion would work if CCP said the role you could fly before, you will fly after but it was never that. It was always about ships. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2586
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 13:58:28 -
[19] - Quote
Vulfen wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:
When you've managed to **** off everyone with a transition you know you're doing it wrong.
Or you know people were expecting to be handed stuff for free and didn't... Its not the lack of free stuff most people are annoyed with, but the lack of accurate information so we can make an informed decision on the best route that annoys people.
I have no issue with people annoyed they don't know what the ship will end up being, I have issue with people asking to be granted skills to fly 4 new ship because they trained for another one before. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2587
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 14:21:12 -
[20] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Literally noone wants new skills for free. People just want to be able to do what they have already trained for.
I can fly a combat carrier, i can fly a triage carrier. they could have introduced a new ship in the carrier line without creating a new skill since both roles are preexisting.
The fact that you have to misrepresent peoples objections as wanting free stuff really speaks volumes about your purpose here.
The fact that CCP introduced these ships in the way that they did also speaks volumes.
It doesnt matter how much misguided apologetics you throw at it, you are still nothing more than a troll. People complaining about legitimate issues on a forum is what forums are for. People complaining about people complaining is a little bit sad mate.
What you trianed for is a carrier. Up to 4 carrier in fact and if you trained for them, you will be able to fly them. No ship that you were ever able to fly will become unavailable to be flown by you when citadels hit unless you put your SP elsewhere.
If you have any example of any SHIPS you can fly and won't be able to when the patch hit, then list it. Beside that, anything else you are asking for is skill to fly a ship you could not fly before and that is something CCP don't have to grant you. |
|
|
|
|
| |
|